Author Topic: Calcium  (Read 19434 times)

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 03:54:26 AM »
PaleoBushman, thank you for your post! Lots of good stuff there! That bone broth study is exactly what I've been looking for! I wish I could read the whole thing, but evidently some kind of password is needed? P.S. Love the idea of eating ribs!! YEAH!!

Tarlach, the thing is that I really want to have strong bones when I'm old, I've got a friend with severe osteoporosis and it is terrible. It's not something I want to take a chance on, now that I've seen it firsthand!

If I can get calcium for sure from bone broth, I will absolutely do that! Otherwise I am thinking of adding some "cheats" to makeup for this deficiency. Teff grain is very high in calcium and other minerals and that is what I used to eat before Paleo for my calcium, since I don't do well at all with dairy. So if I can't get my calcium from a strictly Paleo diet (sad!!!) maybe I will start having teff again every day? I'd rather not, I'd rather stay Paleo if I can!!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 04:33:26 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 04:31:09 AM »
I just wanted to add - that since I've added in more dark green leafy veggies and sardines and anchovies, I'm still only reaching 50% of my daily calcium, but I'm reaching 25000IU of Vitamin A every day, which is toxicity levels:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126104-overview
Quote
# The estimated toxic dose is about 25,000 IU/kg.
# Chronic toxicity appears after ingestion of 25,000 IU or more daily for prolonged periods.


So, apparently that is probably not the best way to get calcium.

If I can get solid nutrition info on bone broths that I can import into the Cron-o-meter, I'd love to try that!

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 04:44:45 AM »
I just found this paper:

http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/pdfletters/Focus_June2005_Calcium.pdf

Quote
Long-lived cultures consume higher amounts of calcium,
along with more magnesium and other minerals, and often get
more sunshine (vitamin D) and vitamin K than most of us.
Longevity research from around the world is consistent with
these correlations. In fact, such cultures consume 2-4 times
the calcium consumed in the U.S
.  Studies of our ancestors
also support a higher calcium intake.

In a quest to discover the origins of poor health and disease, a
progressive dentist of the 1930’s, Dr. Weston Price, set out on a
trip around the world to study communities of people who
appeared to be of exceptional good health and free of disease....

The foods eaten were generally fresh, often raw, and of course,
completely natural and organic. Price also noticed that almost
all the groups ate some fermented foods every day, rich in
digestive enzymes and vitamin K.....

In the Fiji Islands two young men were assigned the task of
doing the “marketplace” shopping for a pregnant woman: It
was their daily job to obtain from the sea a particular kind of
crab that was extraordinarily high in nutrients. (Crabs are
always included on lists of high-calcium foods) Price W. ,
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Sixth Edition, 2002.

Among Eskimos fish eggs were eaten by childbearing women.
Coastal Indians in Peru also knew this great secret. (Fish roe are
among the most healthful foods on our planet. Needless to say,
they have a high calcium content.) Price W., Nutrition and
Physical Degeneration, Sixth Edition, 2002.

Apparently, the longevity and low incidence of degenerative
diseases observed in these islanders are at least consistent with
the high levels of calcium, magnesium and trace minerals found
in their drinking water, along with their high vitamin D levels
due to long hours in the bright sunshine....

S. Boyd Eaton, a physician also known for his studies on
Paleolithic diets, analyzed more than one hundred plant foods
consumed by tribes of hunter-gatherers. Eaton’s results support
the notion that high levels of calcium intake are desirable
because our physiologies developed this way over generations.
Wild vegetable foods average about 130 milligrams of calcium
per 100-gram portions.

Late Paleolithic people were eating about 1,460 grams of such
food each day, yielding over 1,800 milligrams of calcium, while
the meat they ate would have supplied another 100 milligrams.
Gnawing on bones from fowl (as I remember my grandmother
doing) or from small mammals might have substantially
increased the amount of calcium ingested

I couldn't find any data to back up that fish roe has high calcium, unless you eat a lot (at least 1 oz. - which would be very high sodium). Crab does have some, but it's a rather expensive item to add in every day!

I think that spring water would be a great way to get it. I've been drinking some mineral water and although it has some magnesium and calcium, it's still not going to get me anywhere near the RDA's.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 04:55:19 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 06:16:43 AM »
Just found the only actual calcium info on bone broth that I've been able to find, and it's third-hand:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/archive/index.php/t-889370.html
Quote
on another mailing list i'm on, one mama used a fish tank testing kit to measure calcium in her 24 hour chicken bone broth. it turned out to have 300 mg/L of calcium, whereas an 8oz glass of milk has 600-800mg/L (i think)

So, if that is true, I'd have to consume a whole LITER of bone broth to get 300mg....probably not too likely.

Offline kallyn

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 07:05:03 AM »

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126104-overview
Quote
# The estimated toxic dose is about 25,000 IU/kg.
# Chronic toxicity appears after ingestion of 25,000 IU or more daily for prolonged periods.



From reading the article it seems like it's saying the toxic dose is 25,000 IU/day of retinol which is the pre-formed animal version of vitamin A.  If your vitamin A is coming from plants, it's not retinol.  It's not even actual vitamin A at all, it's a carotenoid referred to as provitamin A.  Your body has to convert the plant carotenoid into retinol and it has a very poor conversion rate (like...10-15% or something).  So 25,000 IU of plant based vitamin A is actually more like 2500 IU of retinol.
-Elizabeth
//Caveman Food

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 08:53:59 AM »
Thanks Kallyn! That is very reassuring!  I keep seeing my levels over 25000IU in the Cron-o-meter every day and started to worry. I had even stopped eating liver and chicken hearts (which were of course also very high in vitamin A), but the numbers were still alarmingly high.

Do you have any links to recommend for me to read up on that?

Offline kallyn

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2009, 09:18:07 AM »
I don't have time to find a really good one right now, but googling "conversion of pro vitamin a to retinol" without the quote marks looks like it should turn some stuff up!  Also try "carotenoid" instead of "pro vitamin A."  And here is the WAPF article about vitamin A, which I think might talk about it some but I haven't reread it in a long time: http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitaminavagary.html
-Elizabeth
//Caveman Food

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 09:21:16 AM »
Great, thanks Kallyn!

OK, I checked out the WAPF link and also did a little more research too as you suggested. I found this which seems helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_carotene
Quote
One retinol equivalent is equal to:
1 RE = 1 µg retinol
1 RE = 6 µg beta-carotene
1 RE = 12 µg other provitamin A carotenoids
1 RE = 3.33 IU vitamin A activity from retinol
1 RE = 10 IU vitamin A activity from beta-carotene


And this:

http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/vitamin-A.php
Quote
Vitamin A is also measured in International Units (IU): 1 RE = 10 IU for plant products and 1 RE = 3.3 IU for animal products...Six mg of beta-carotene are considered to be the equivalent of 1 mg of vitamin A....The American Food and Drug Administration has established an RDA of 5,000 IU for vitamin A, with a recommendation that pregnant women maintain their intake around 8,000 IU and that vitamin A be taken in the form of beta-carotene, which is not considered toxic....However, any high dose therapy (more than 25,000 IU for an adult or 10,000 IU for a child) should be closely monitored by a healthcare professional.

Now my question is - is the Cron-o-meter already making that conversion or should I divide my vitamin A calculation by one of these ratios?

That still leaves the problem of how to get enough calcium to meet the RDA. I'm at the upper limit of how many leafy greens I can stomach per day!  :P I could add some almonds (but I'm limited to how much I can eat of those because I don't do well with nuts), plus that wouldn't help all that much if I'm only at 50% of my calcium. I've already added in sardines and anchovies. I'm really stumped now.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:55:47 AM by marika »

Offline paleo bushman

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2009, 12:10:54 PM »
"Late Paleolithic people were eating about 1,460 grams of such
food (vegetable) each day, yielding over 1,800 milligrams of calcium, while
the meat they ate would have supplied another 100 milligrams.
Gnawing on bones from fowl (as I remember my grandmother
doing) or from small mammals might have substantially
increased the amount of calcium ingested."

Seems vegetable still are the main source.  I never found the fish eggs appealing to eat.  Seems most sardines they sell now are boneless.  The best part of sardines are the crunchy bones.  Maybe bone meal would not be bad.

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2009, 01:07:02 PM »
Seems pretty crazy though - 1,800 mg of calcium from veggies? There's only so much kale and collard greens a person can eat every day. I'm eating about all I can tolerate and I'm still only getting about 50% of the RDA (which I think adds up to about 500mg).

Maybe Paleo greens were somehow super-powered with calcium?

Offline Rollin

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2009, 10:08:50 PM »
Oh dear, **me expects a drilling from Mummy on this** :-[

Been thinking kelp or maybe a kelp supplement. :-\
Stamp out weakness!!!

Offline paleo bushman

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2009, 11:07:54 PM »
From wikipedia.  Fortunately, many good sources of calcium exist. These include seaweeds such as kelp, wakame and hijiki; nuts and seeds (like almonds and sesame); blackstrap molasses; beans; oranges; figs; quinoa; amaranth; collard greens; okra; rutabaga; broccoli; dandelion leaves; kale; and fortified products such as orange juice and soy milk. (However, calcium fortified orange juice often contains vitamin D3 derived from lanolin, and is thus unacceptable for vegans.[11] ) An overlooked source of calcium is eggshell, which can be ground into a powder and mixed into food or a glass of water.[12][13][14] Cultivated vegetables generally have less calcium than wild plants.[15]

Maybe wild greens.  This guy below helps you find wild weeds to eat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv3u9P1VWPo&feature=PlayList&p=68E3E2A1B84C13B4&index=1


marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2009, 03:34:56 AM »
Thanks PaleoBushman! I saw that Wikipedia listing too! I just looked up the seaweeds mentioned, in NutritionData.com, and they didn't really have very much calcium (just 1-2% of the RDA per 2 tablespoons). Plus I don't think I really want to eat seaweed every day:P  Once in a while is fine, but not every day!

1 oz. of almonds has 7%, which is a little bit helpful, but not that much. I looked up some wild greens that we have here (Purslane) but it doesn't really have that much either.

The only stuff that really is high in it is the dark leafy greens and broccoli, but like I said, there's only so much of that a person can eat in a day. I've been eating them for all three meals, and as much as I can stomach, and I'm still only at 50%.

I'm so sad....I love Paleo and I love how my skin is looking and my trim figure! But now that I've seen osteoporosis up close in my friend, it's really not something I want to trifle with, you know? It's so sad to see my friend's body disappearing from the inside out.  :'(   She is such a wonderful person too, a joy to be around, and it's breaking my heart.

So I think I will start adding some "cheats" - some teff grain (hopefully since it's gluten-free might still keep my Paleo skin?) and a little cooked milk or cheese (I can handle them much better when they're cooked). The teff is especially nice because it's also so high in other minerals too that I've been coming up deficient in. Hopefully this is true as well:

http://www.antiaginghealthzone.com/paleodiet.html
Quote
Another factor that affects glycemic index is the amount of intact fiber compared to the amount of starch.  Small grains such as millet, amaranth, quinoa, and teff are very small, so have a higher fiber to starch ratio.  This gives them a lower glycemic index than whole grains like whole wheat, other glutinous grains, and corn.

So, as cheats go, hopefully teff isn't too bad!

I'll keep looking for Paleo alternatives though, and please keep posting suggestions! I really want to stay Paleo! But I also want to reach at least 75% of the RDAs!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 05:23:02 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2009, 05:36:43 AM »
I just came across this paper:

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/JANA%20final.pdf
By Loren Cordain
Quote
Potential Nutritional Shortcomings of the Contemporary Paleolithic Diet
Calcium
Table 4 shows that the calcium intake (691 mg) would be considerably lower than the RDA (1000 mg), while the protein intake (217 g) would be more than 4 times recommended values (50 g). Because increased dietary protein increases obligatory loss of urinary calcium, it has been suggested that a calcium (mg)/protein (g) ratio of >20:1 may protect against bone loss.22 The calcium/protein ratio of the contemporary Paleolithic diet (3.2 :1) is considerably lower than that in the average U.S. diet (10.7:1)23 and therefore might be expected to increase the risk for bone demineralization, osteoporosis, and osteopenia....  :o

However, more importantly it is likely that Paleolithic hunter gatherers would have been in positive calcium balance despite a relatively low calcium intake because the calciuretic effects of a high meat diet were countered by high fruit and vegetable intake.11,12   [Marika's comment: "likely"....but do we have any definitive proof? Do we have any Paleo skeletons to study that lived into their 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s and showed no signs of osteoporosis? Especially females?]

Vitamin D
The contemporary Paleolithic diet provides no dietary vitamin D. Except for the livers of certain marine mammals and fish, there are relatively few sources of vitamin D in the normal food supply. In most hunter-gatherers, vitamin D would have been obtained via the body’s synthesis of this hormone from ultraviolet irradiation (sunlight exposure) of cholesterol in the skin.

So Dr. Cordain mentions two of the deficiencies I keep coming up with: Calcium and Vitamin D. I also always come up short in Vitamin E, Iron and Potassium, and often vitamin K,  Folate, B1 and sometimes Magnesium too.

I was curious so I input the "sample day" into the Cron-o-meter and sure enough, it came up low in calcium and with zero vitamin D. Also, when I looked closer at the sample day, the portions are HUGE! 11.7 oz of salmon for breakfast? That's a LOT of salmon. And 8 oz. of tomatoes at lunch and another 4 oz of tomatoes at dinner too? (that's a LOT of tomatoes!!!) And 16oz. of broccoli at dinner??? Really?  These portions seem to be pretty ridiculous to me. At least, I couldn't eat that much broccoli at one sitting.

Anyway, all these deficiencies are really starting to worry me. This is why I quit veganism - I don't want to follow any way of eating that constantly requires supplementation.

Anyway, I'd love to hear suggestions if other folks have managed to consistently reach their RDAs in everything with good Paleo food, without having to use supplements! I really do want to stay Paleo if possible!!   :-\
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 06:04:52 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2009, 08:15:03 AM »
Here's a study I just found on lactose-intolerant men and women and looked at their bone health:

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/22/3/201
Quote
Daily calcium intake (Table 1) was 300–900 mg/day, mean 692 ± 162. Non-dairy calcium sources were sardines, green leafy vegetables and soybeans. Total daily calcium intake was <500 mg/day in 13 (20%) patients and 500–1000 mg/day in 43 (65%) patients, and only 10 (15%) patients had >1000 mg/day calcium in their regular diet. The lowest total Ca intake was found in the men. There was no statistical significance between subgroups regarding diary, non-diary and total calcium intake....

Hypocalciuria (urinary calcium excretion <100 mg/24hours) was observed in 32 (49%) patients....

We observed some changes in serum PTH level, which might be induced by decreased total and dairy calcium intake. Serum PTH level was negatively correlated with total calcium intake. It also has a trend to increase in patients with the lowest daily calcium intake compared to the patients with moderate calcium intake. Increase in serum PTH may lead to decreased urinary calcium excretion, increased bone turnover and consequent decrease in bone mass...

Seven postmenopausal women were diagnosed as osteoporotic before the study, but none of the postmenopausal women received any therapy and/or calcium supplements. Six women (12% of all women) reported three wrist fractures and four ankle fractures, and one man (6% of all men) reported a hip fracture. All patients sustained fractures before the age 50; all fractures were reported as traumatic.   :o
 

Low calcium intake due to LI might influence bone metabolism independently from age and gender and may lead to a decrease in bone mass in the axial and in the appendicular skeleton following increases in bone turnover markers and serum PTH level. Impaired vitamin D status may further contribute to a decrease in bone mass. The early diagnosis of LD and dietary correction of low calcium intake and vitamin D status might be important for prevention of impairment in bone metabolism and early development of osteoporosis.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 04:47:16 AM by marika »

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Re: Calcium
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