Author Topic: Calcium  (Read 19345 times)

Offline suze

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Calcium
« on: December 20, 2006, 12:45:45 AM »
The first thing that people always ask me about the paleo way of eating is "But how do you get enough calcium if you don't drink milk?" Sometimes I launch into a long diatribe about the dairy marketing council and how they have snowed everyone with the idea that if you don't drink three glasses of milk a day then you are at risk for osteoporosis.  Other times I just say I drink calcium-fortified orange juice and let it go at that.  Which I do, sometimes, but not nearly anough to get 1000 mg (the RDA) of calcium a day.  I do eat small boned fish everyday, either mackeral or salmon, and I eat lots of leafy greens and almonds/sesame seeds.  But my question is this.  Do any of you cavemen/women take calcium supplements?  Am I kidding myself that I can get enough calcium from my daily diet without any dairy?  Suze

Offline kallyn

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 07:44:25 AM »
I don't supplement with anything and I haven't fallen down dead yet.  :)  Another good way to get calcium is to make your own stock from leftover bones and make sure to add a splash of vinegar to pull the minerals from the bones.  Folk wisdom says that there is as much calcium in a cup of stock as there is in a cup of milk, but I don't have any scientific analyses to back that up.

edited to add: I also just thought of this.  If you're not sure how much calcium you're actually taking in, I would recommend creating an account at www.fitday.com.  You enter the food you eat, and it will give you a breakdown of the macronutrient ratios (protein, fat, carbs), as well as the major micronutrients (of which calcium is one).
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 07:58:02 AM by kallyn »
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Offline suze

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2006, 05:35:27 PM »
Thanks Kallyn, I will check that out.  Suze


Offline trenchsage

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2008, 08:09:52 AM »
well im sure you all know that calcium from dairy is practically a waste of time - because of casein blocking absorption - and the protein thats in dairy.

the thing with calcium intake is really not that you NEED 1000mg but how much protein is in your daily diet.

spinach - kale - herbs like oregano and the like all contain loads of calcium - put them in a soup after its cooked (to wilt the leaves only) and then blend and you've easily got ur RDA (unless you consume 300g of protein a day or something)

nuts and sesame are all good - tahini is a nice way to get more calcium and make alot of things more interesting - i spread it on nearly everything - meat, vegetables, fruit its great:) remember that having fat with vegetables and fruit increases nutrient absorption by ALOT - so something like tahini is perfect.

fish bones are great - and if you can seek a local organic butcher you may be able to get things like bone marrow?

i'd say if you find out how much protein your consuming if its below 80grams a day you'll be fine on a diet consisting of the things you mentioned :)

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2009, 12:21:55 PM »
I found this today, pretty much summarizes stuff we are already doing:

http://www.paleodiet.com/losspts.txt

Quote
If you are concerned about bone mineralization, the above factors which
interfere with calcium absorption suggest the following strategies:

1.  get your fibre from fruits and vegetables, minimizing bran consumption;
2.  minimize your salt intake;
3.  spend regular time in the sun, or supplement with vitamin D;
4.  get plenty of anti-gravity exercise;
5.  ensure that your magnesium intake is adequate;
6.  reduce or eliminate dairy products and eggs from your diet;
7.  reduce your sugar intake;
8.  avoid soft drinks;
9.  avoid coffee;
10. do not smoke;
11. get tested for celiac disease.

Here's a good table of foods high in magnesium, which from what I understand is crucial for strong bones:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=75

Quote
Excellent sources of magnesium include Swiss chard and spinach.

Very good sources of magnesium include mustard greens, summer squash, broccoli, blackstrap molasses, halibut, turnip greens, pumpkin seeds and peppermint.

There are numerous good sources of magnesium including cucumber, green beans, celery, kale and a variety of seeds, including sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, and flax seeds.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 12:29:15 PM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2009, 01:35:10 PM »
P.S. Just wanted to add too that San Faustino mineral water is a good source of calcium too!

Offline paleo bushman

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2009, 10:56:24 AM »
Hi I downloaded the calculator Marika recommended in her diet journal cron-o-meter 0.9.5 open source.  The neatest thing about it is that is shows your vitamin and mineral intake  deficiencies.  My greatest deficiency for yesterday was Calcium 25% or 294 mg.

There is a good chance our caveman brothers got their Calcium from eating the bones. 
Anchovies or sardines with bones are a good source.  Thus, I might start taking a supplement.  I know Dr. Oz recommends taking a 1000 mg Calcium and 500 mg Magnesium supplement.

My other deficiencies after day one Vitamin D, Folate, Vitamin K, Vitamin E.  No wonder I crave spinach and sardines.

The wizard himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKU0MkqNAN0
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 11:07:02 AM by paleo bushman »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 11:34:39 AM »
Paleo bushman, you've got a lot of the same deficiencies that I do! I'm planning on getting some spinach and oily fish too!

Sarah

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 12:04:42 PM »
P.S. Just wanted to add too that San Faustino mineral water is a good source of calcium too!

I think the calcium/magnesium balance in this water is off. You should try to find a water that has more magnesium than calcium.
http://www.sanfaustino.com/us/composition/

I've read about this balance mostly in books but here is a link that talks about the basics anyway...
http://www.mgwater.com/calmagab.shtml

I know you haven't liked the idea in the past but you may want to reconsider the liquid trace minerals I add to my water (you can also add it to food too) as it is balanced by the sea.

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 04:27:52 AM »
Sarah, your mgwater link isn't pulling up anything for me. I tried it yesterday and again today, it tries to load but never does load anything. ?  Do you have another site you could recommend?

I never heard about a calcium/magnesium ratio so I researched it a little and found this site, but it disagrees with the hypothesis:
http://www.4.waisays.com/magn-calc.htm
Quote
Some say that magnesium and calcium are two competing minerals  that naturally occur in a 1:2 balance. The more calcium is consumed the more magnesium is required (to deport calcium from cells).
This, of course, is utter nonsense; there is no natural magnesium-calcium balance. This ratio is different per food.
And again, mother’s milk contains the least magnesium relative to calcium, and no sane person can claim that mother’s milk causes osteoporosis

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, but it was an interesting site, since I had never heard about this ratio before.

That site also had an interesting page on how milk actually causes osteoporosis:
http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm

Quote
It is very simple: where the most milk is consumed, the osteoporosis incidence is highest. Compared to other countries, the most milk is consumed in Sweden, Finland, Switzerland and The Netherlands (300 to 400 kg / cap / year), and osteoporosis incidence in these countries has sky rocketed. (25)

I did drink two big glasses of the San Faustino yesterday, and sure enough, I got foot cramps all night long (this happens when I have too much calcium - often accompanied by headaches). I personally believe the RDA's for calcium are WAY too high, for me anyway, since when I go out of my way to supplement my diet to reach the RDA, it always causes muscle cramping and headaches. 

At any rate, I'm going to stop drinking the San Faustino and just heavily increase my green veggies.

ETA: I just found another site that agreed with the calcium/magnesium ratio:
http://bodyecology.com/07/06/08/magnesium_deficiency.php
Quote
   
10:4... it's not just CB radio jargon, it's actually the ideal calcium magnesium ratio in your body. Unfortunately, calcium is getting all the press, with magnesium falling into the background.
If you are making this mistake, it could be impacting your health.

Everywhere you look there are new calcium supplements and calcium-fortified products, especially in processed foods. And even though many people consume plenty of calcium, bone diseases like osteoporosis are still epidemic, affecting 55% of people over the age of 50!

The average American does not consume enough magnesium, and as a result, many people have a calcium to magnesium ratio of 10:2.67 or even 15:4.
Be 10:4 With Magnesium
If you want to feel your best, then don't overlook magnesium. This low profile mineral is actually a key to your health and vitality! With the right calcium magnesium ratio, you'll always be 10:4!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 05:25:55 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2009, 05:30:20 AM »
Sarah, I got to that mgwater site through a different path and it loaded!

This was very interesting, in regards to my foot cramps and muscle cramps from trying to reach the calcium RDA:

Quote
Calcium causes muscles to contract, while magnesium helps them relax. When calcium is taken for menstrual cramps it knocks magnesium out of the cells and makes it more available for immediate use. However, it depletes the body of magnesium and ensures that the problem will recur the following month unless sufficient magnesium is added to the diet. Taking calcium gives temporary relief of menstrual cramps.

A diet high in dairy and low in whole grains can lead to excess calcium in the tissues and a magnesium deficiency. The source of menstrual cramps may be coming from eating too much cheese, yogurt, ice cream or milk, combined with insufficient whole grains and beans. Or it could come from taking too much calcium without enough magnesium.

I found this site too:
http://www.ctds.info/magdiet.html
Quote
Calcium is a magnesium antagonist. As such, drinking too much milk or eating too many other calcium rich foods in relation to Mg containing foods may lower magnesium levels. A recent study found that older women who took calcium supplements had an increased risk of heart attack. Logically, it would make sense that a known magnesium antagonist like calcium, taken in too high of a dosage, may hurt the heart since numerous studies have shown that magnesium is vital for proper heart functioning.

So I think I'll try to concentrate more on increasing the magnesium. Here's a nice site that lists foods high in magnesium:
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium.asp

Unfortunately, most of the foods on the list are not Paleo. It's going to be tough! It looks like halibut and spinach are pretty decent sources - YUM!!! Sounds like an awesome dinner!! Also banana and avocado have some.

ETA: I found this Michael Eades blog entry on magnesium:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/magnesium-and-inflammation/

Also he recommended this water, it seems pretty good for both calcium and magnesium:
http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Water/Germany/Apollinaris.asp

Sarah, how does that one look? I think we have that water at my local store! Maybe they'll let me exchange my unused San Faustino for it!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 06:33:48 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 05:10:51 AM »
So I was able to exchange the San Faustino for Appolinaris, and drank two glasses of that yesterday and had no foot cramps, so, so far so good!

I wanted to mention: in order to try to increase my calcium intake (which is always under 75% of the RDA everyday), I've been eating more greens. BUT, they are all rather high in vitamin A. So now I'm still under in calcium, but way OVER in vitamin A, which I know can cause toxicity. So now what to do???

I did read that rhubarb has calcium, without the vitamin A. It has oxalates, as do the greens, which supposedly bind  up the calcium, so I don't know if I'm actually getting ANY calcium from all those greens anyway. Although, from what I've read, cooking does help break down the oxalates. At any rate, maybe I'll try rhubarb!

I'm also interested in trying to make some bone broth, I've heard that it may (or may NOT??) contain calcium, magnesium, and other good stuff from the bones. Or to just eat the marrow. Instinctually, it makes sense to me to cook those up and eat the marrow somehow....any suggestions?

Here's something I found on the nutrition of bone marrow:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=112897
Quote
“Bone Marrow is the essence of all vertebralis. It contains all of the
necessary nutrients to the human body, such as proteins, vitamins,
complex B, minerals (calcium , magnesium, zinc ). Bone Marrow also
contains Lecithin and Methionine.

But then here I see that caribou bone marrow contains no calcium whatsoever:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/ethnic-foods/8088/2
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 05:18:38 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 05:26:01 AM »
I really do wonder if the RDAs for calcium are just set too blasted high...

Here is see that magnesium and vitamin K both are extremely important for bone health:

Quote
The vitamin K provided by Swiss chard-306.3% of the daily value in one cup of cooked Swiss chard-is important for maintaining bone health. Vitamin K1 helps prevent excessive activation of osteoclasts, the cells that break down bone. Addiitonally, friendly bacteria in our intestines convert K1 into K2, the form of vitamin K that activates osteocalcin, the major non-collagen protein in bone. Osteocalcin anchors calcium molecules inside of the bone....

Magnesium, yet another nutrient on Swiss chard's "Excellent Source" list, helps regulate nerve and muscle tone by balancing the action of calcium. In many nerve cells, magnesium serves as Nature's own calcium channel blocker, preventing calcium from rushing into the nerve cell and activating the nerve. By blocking calcium's entry, magnesium keeps our nerves (and the blood vessels and muscles they enervate) relaxed. If our diet provides us with too little magnesium, however, calcium can gain free entry, and the nerve cell can become overactivated, sending too many messages and causing excessive contraction. Insufficient magnesium can thus contribute to high blood pressure, muscle spasms (including spasms of the heart muscle or the spasms of the airways symptomatic of asthma), and migraine headaches, as well as muscle cramps, tension, soreness and fatigue.

Magnesium, as well as calcium, is necessary for healthy bones. About two-thirds of the magnesium in the human body is found in our bones. Some helps give bones their physical structure, while the rest is found on the surface of the bone where it is stored for the body to draw upon as needed.

A cup of cooked Swiss chard will give you 37.6% of the daily value for magnesium along with 10.2% of the daily value for calcium.

So, I give up....should we just eat plenty of greens and not worry so much about meeting the RDA?

Offline paleo bushman

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 07:04:19 PM »
I think the only Paleo way you get that much Calcium is chewing and cooking bones.  Maybe ribs and rib-eye are the key.  I caught some sardines and ate them with many bones still in them.  But be careful, small bones can puncture things.

We postulated that the calcium content of soups and stews could be increased by prolonged cooking with a beef bone. Three experiments were done to prove this theory: (1) a bone soup made with a beef bone and distilled water, cooked for 24 hours; (2) a bone-vegetable soup cooked the same way; and (3) a vegetable soup made the same way but without the bone. It was concluded that prolonged cooking of a bone in soup increases the calcium content of the soup when cooked at an acidic, but not at a neutral pH.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p7u013w7360016w2/

Want to know some simple ways to maximize your calcium uptake and utilization?

    * Eat fresh foods.
    * Add some vinegar or lemon juice to water when cooking bones or beans.
    * Sunshine or vitamin D supplements are helpful.
    * Exercise builds bones.

http://bastyrcenter.org/content/view/167/&page=

Have you ever thought of the raw food diet? The chicken bones are safe that way, as well, and they will be able to get more calcium out of them raw.  (For dogs, but maybe bones are safe if we eat them raw too).

http://www.girlshealth.gov/parents/bones/toolbox/list.cfm

Offline Tarlach

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 07:45:16 PM »
So, I give up....should we just eat plenty of greens and not worry so much about meeting the RDA?
Yes.  I don't even worry about eating a lot of greens either...
The "Seven Deadly Sins"

• Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . • Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc)
• Refined foods (salt/sugars etc ) . . • Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant)
• Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . . • Legumes (soy/beans/peas)
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Re: Calcium
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 07:45:16 PM »


 


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