Author Topic: Why do high carbers store so much water? (Read 2170 times)

samjohn · « **on:** March 03, 2010, 04:17:12 PM »

So when you go Paleo or low carb, your body drops a lot of water. Why is it storing all that water in the first place, and what connection does it have to carbs?

Would a person get the same water loss if they went high carb Paleo (lots and lots of fruit)?

Warren Dew · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2010, 04:34:08 PM »

For me, there's a 7 lb water weight difference between low carb paleo and "high" - that is, moderate - carb paleo.

I don't completely understand the mechanisms of the connection between carbohydrates and water weight, though I think most of the water weight is in the intestines. In the case of fruit, I think the water is bound up with the pectin and other soluble carbohydrate, but that doesn't explain why it happens even more with grains and even low fiber starchy foods.

Tarlach · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2010, 07:05:42 PM »

Each gram of cellular glycogen is stored with 2.7 gram of water.

samjohn · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2010, 08:51:58 PM »

Quote from: Tarlach on March 03, 2010, 07:05:42 PM

Each gram of cellular glycogen is stored with 2.7 gram of water.

Ahh so its that simple?

Would eating loads of carbs to store more water help you survive if you had to walk across a desert with no supplies?

ajmesa · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2010, 10:46:36 PM »

Quote from: samjohn on March 03, 2010, 08:51:58 PM

Quote from: Tarlach on March 03, 2010, 07:05:42 PM
Each gram of cellular glycogen is stored with 2.7 gram of water.

Ahh so its that simple?

Would eating loads of carbs to store more water help you survive if you had to walk across a desert with no supplies?

Having your glycogen storage filled will definitely help you in that situation, and not only because of the water.

Tarlach · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2010, 12:54:56 AM »

Quote from: ajmesa on March 03, 2010, 10:46:36 PM

Quote from: samjohn on March 03, 2010, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: Tarlach on March 03, 2010, 07:05:42 PM
Each gram of cellular glycogen is stored with 2.7 gram of water.

Ahh so its that simple?

Would eating loads of carbs to store more water help you survive if you had to walk across a desert with no supplies?
Having your glycogen storage filled will definitely help you in that situation, and not only because of the water.

... except you would be starving hungry in a couple of hours and then want to go to sleep when you couldn't get any carbs.

samjohn · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:59:47 AM »

But you'd have more stored water, the need for which is only surpassed by your need for air. Either way thanks for such a simple and illuminating answer.

Tarlach · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2010, 07:20:45 AM »

I doubt it would make any difference in the end though. Just 5% water loss is a significant problem.

Also, the most commonly seen type of dehydration is isotonic, which means you need electrolytes as much as you need water.

Warren Dew · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2010, 07:52:07 AM »

Quote from: Tarlach on March 03, 2010, 07:05:42 PM

Each gram of cellular glycogen is stored with 2.7 gram of water.

Doh. Completely forgot about that aspect, thanks!

ajmesa · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2010, 09:11:47 AM »

Quote from: Tarlach on March 04, 2010, 12:54:56 AM

Quote from: ajmesa on March 03, 2010, 10:46:36 PM
Quote from: samjohn on March 03, 2010, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: Tarlach on March 03, 2010, 07:05:42 PM
Each gram of cellular glycogen is stored with 2.7 gram of water.

Ahh so its that simple?

Would eating loads of carbs to store more water help you survive if you had to walk across a desert with no supplies?
Having your glycogen storage filled will definitely help you in that situation, and not only because of the water.

... except you would be starving hungry in a couple of hours and then want to go to sleep when you couldn't get any carbs.

If you want to cross a desert you would want your glycogen storage to be filled before starting. I don't think there is much debate to this.

The other option would be to start with them empty, which means you are in a fat burning state. The person that starts with them filled will get to that fat burning state after some hours, the reason why she/he has an advantage.

If you are crossing a desert without food, no matter what you ate before you'll get hungry.

I also don't understand why you think you need to be a carb junkie in order to have your glycogen storage filled. There's an obvious survival advantage to having glycogen storage filled, our ancestors had this advantage and as far as I am aware they were not carb junkies.

EDIT: and yeah, I don't think the water will make much difference.

Tarlach · « **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2010, 04:55:21 PM »

If we are talking about maximizing water storage then you do have to eat a lot of carbs. Glycogen stores can be filled without carbs, but you have smaller stores without dietary carbs.

The whole 'crossing a desert' idea is kind of stupid and I'm certainly not arguing about it. If you were going to do any preparation for it, you would be much better off just carrying fluids with you.

Warren Dew · « **Reply #11 on:** March 04, 2010, 07:49:46 PM »

Quote from: ajmesa on March 04, 2010, 09:11:47 AM

There's an obvious survival advantage to having glycogen storage filled, our ancestors had this advantage and as far as I am aware they were not carb junkies.

There's also an obvious survival disadvantage to having large amounts of glycogen stored, namely carrying around ten extra pounds.

Quote from: Tarlach on March 04, 2010, 04:55:21 PM

Glycogen stores can be filled without carbs, but you have smaller stores without dietary carbs.

Absolutely. That's the most obvious thing that can be learned from watching how various peoples' diets correlate with their weight around here. When peoples' ticker weights shoot back up 10 pounds, it's always associated with a major carbohydrate cheat, and when they plummet, it's associated with going to a lower carb, paleo diet.

Given the strong association with waist circumference, I suspect it has to do specifically with glycogen storage in the liver. The muscles will probably replete their glycogen stores even on low to moderate blood sugar levels, but the liver uses its stores to buffer blood sugar levels - so when blood sugar is on the low side, the liver releases glycogen, and the liver likely only stores glycogen when blood sugar is on the high side.

ajmesa · « **Reply #12 on:** March 04, 2010, 08:26:18 PM »

Quote from: Warren Dew on March 04, 2010, 07:49:46 PM

Quote from: ajmesa on March 04, 2010, 09:11:47 AM
There's an obvious survival advantage to having glycogen storage filled, our ancestors had this advantage and as far as I am aware they were not carb junkies.

There's also an obvious survival disadvantage to having large amounts of glycogen stored, namely carrying around ten extra pounds.

10 extra pounds that give you the explosiveness to kill a bear. Yep, there's definitely a disadvantage to that.

If you think those extra pounds are a drag rather than an advantage you don't understand the function of glycogen.

The quality of arguments in this forum is becoming really low. I mean, really, debating whether having a filled glycogen storage is beneficial in the wild? Ridiculous. Pathetic. To me this just shows the type of arguments that the extreme-low-carb people have to hold on to in order for the real world not to break their little glass bubble. I have nothing against low carb (great for weight loss, poor for performance), but these kind of arguments don't help anyone. Paleo is not even supposed to be a low carb diet, the concept has nothing to do with the macro-nutrient ratio.

Have fun with the stupid arguments. I refuse to posts in these type of threads anymore.

George · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:25:28 PM »

So, er, what's the actual answer? Anyone know? Is that excess water really just all bound up with glycogen? I had the impression that it was somehow associated with peripheral fat, contributing to the universal bloaty look.

Tarlach · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:37:01 PM »

Quote from: ajmesa on March 04, 2010, 08:26:18 PM

The quality of arguments in this forum is becoming really low. I mean, really, debating whether having a filled glycogen storage is beneficial in the wild? Ridiculous. Pathetic. To me this just shows the type of arguments that the extreme-low-carb people have to hold on to in order for the real world not to break their little glass bubble. I have nothing against low carb (great for weight loss, poor for performance), but these kind of arguments don't help anyone. Paleo is not even supposed to be a low carb diet, the concept has nothing to do with the macro-nutrient ratio.

Have fun with the stupid arguments. I refuse to posts in these type of threads anymore.

What are you complaining about

No-one is really arguing anything.

There were just a few interesting thoughts proposed.

Having gylcogen stores filled has nothing to do with carb consumption. No-one has disputed this.
In an emergency survival situation, you don't have any control over how full of empty your glycogen stores are, so the whole thing is preposterous anyway.

You certainly don't need to go throwing bad karma around and refusing to participate in a friendly discussion.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:37:01 PM »

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Author Topic: Why do high carbers store so much water? (Read 2170 times)

samjohn

Why do high carbers store so much water?

Warren Dew

Re: Why do high carbers store so much water?

Tarlach

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samjohn

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ajmesa

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Tarlach

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samjohn

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Tarlach

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Warren Dew

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ajmesa

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Tarlach

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Warren Dew

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ajmesa

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George

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Tarlach

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