Author Topic: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?  (Read 2897 times)

Offline samjohn

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 2394
  • Karma: 146
    • View Profile
    • Email
Has anyone come across a study investigating people eating above maintenance calories but on very low carb, high fat/protein and still losing weight?

No anecdotal stuff please.
The answer to your question is 'eat more fat'.

Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

If you are having weight loss issues, it'd be a good idea to start posting a detailed food journal, then everyone can help.

'Anecdotal Evidence' is an oxymoron.

Offline arthurb999

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
  • Karma: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 02:08:21 PM »
Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

:D

Offline PaleoMama

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 139
  • Karma: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 02:32:14 PM »
I did an experiment with myself this last month at eating above maintenance. I was trying to see if an excess of calories would give me more energy. It did, but it also gave me 5 pounds of fat :(  I'm a bit of an anomaly it seems though. I have not been able to lose weight on a paleo diet even when trying very low carb.  While this didn't work for me weight wise, I wouldn't rule it out that it might work for someone else.

Offline samjohn

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 2394
  • Karma: 146
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 04:52:45 PM »
Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

:D

Not for my personal info, more to convince paleo/low carb sceptics.
The answer to your question is 'eat more fat'.

Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

If you are having weight loss issues, it'd be a good idea to start posting a detailed food journal, then everyone can help.

'Anecdotal Evidence' is an oxymoron.

Offline Warren Dew

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 4409
  • Karma: 330
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 07:49:48 PM »
Considering how hard it is to get studies done on low carb in the first place, I'm guessing we're going to have to wait a while for a published study on low carb with excess calories.

Offline samjohn

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 2394
  • Karma: 146
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 07:55:08 PM »
Considering how hard it is to get studies done on low carb in the first place, I'm guessing we're going to have to wait a while for a published study on low carb with excess calories.

I had a pretty extensive look around and couldn't find anything, was just hoping maybe you or ajmesa had seen something along those lines.

The answer to your question is 'eat more fat'.

Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

If you are having weight loss issues, it'd be a good idea to start posting a detailed food journal, then everyone can help.

'Anecdotal Evidence' is an oxymoron.

Offline Warren Dew

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 4409
  • Karma: 330
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 07:58:26 PM »
There was one study on athletic performance on a ketogenic diet that made sure the atheletes didn't lose any weight.  I'm guessing that involved overfeeding them, but unfortunately that wasn't part of the reported results.

Offline avelin

  • Major
  • ***
  • Posts: 936
  • Karma: 57
  • Evolutionary
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2010, 12:57:11 PM »
Try looking amongst some of the Atkins research/references. It's usual to be able to eat more calories on low carbohydrate diets than otherwise.

There are tons of referenced pieces summarised there (just looked) although I didn't look specifically for your question as you can't just search amongst them (or I missed a search bar). You could then see if any of the studies were published online.

Here is an example (I didn't click on read more to get to the quoted abstract so this is just the comment by the site)

Quote

Goedecke, J.H., Christie, C., Wilson, G., et al., "Metabolic Adaptation to a High-Fat Diet in Endurance Cyclists," Metabolism, 48(12), 1999, pages 1509-1517.

Summary:

The following information was written by Atkins professionals.

The purpose of this study was to assess metabolic adaptations to a high-fat diet in endurance cyclists. Sixteen endurance-trained cyclists were randomly assigned to one of two diet groups for a period of 15 days. One group remained on their habitual diet (30% of calories from fat) while the other group consumed a high-fat diet (69% of calories from fat) of the same caloric value. Results revealed that the level of certain enzymes involved in fat metabolism was elevated, signaling a shift from burning carbohydrate for energy to burning fat for energy. This change in fuel utilization occurred within five days of switching to the high-fat diet. Subjects also used less muscle glycogen (stored carbohydrate) after 15 days of the high-fat diet. The authors concluded that consuming a high-fat diet for as little as five to 10 days significantly alters the body’s fuel selection from carbohydrate to fat without altering cycling performance.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 01:38:54 PM by avelin »
Ideology that fits biology

Offline avelin

  • Major
  • ***
  • Posts: 936
  • Karma: 57
  • Evolutionary
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2010, 01:06:42 PM »
Another one (my underlining). I've removed the Atkins summary but left in the quoted abstract

Quote

The American Journal of Medicine

Westman, E.C., Yancy, W.S., Edman, J.S., et al., "Effect of 6-Month Adherence to a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet Program," American Journal of Medicine, 113(1), 2002, pages 30-36.


To determine the effect of a 6-month very low carbohydrate diet program on body weight and other metabolic parameters.Fifty-one overweight or obese healthy volunteers who wanted to lose weight were placed on a very low carbohydrate diet (<25 g/d), with no limit on caloric intake. They also received nutritional supplementation and recommendations about exercise, and attended group meetings at a research clinic. The outcomes were body weight, body mass index, percentage of body fat (estimated by skinfold thickness), serum chemistry and lipid values, 24-hour urine measurements, and subjective adverse effects.Forty-one (80%) of the 51 subjects attended visits through 6 months. In these subjects, the mean (+/- SD) body weight decreased 10.3% +/- 5.9% (P <0.001) from baseline to 6 months (body weight reduction of 9.0 +/- 5.3 kg and body mass index reduction of 3.2 +/- 1.9 kg/m(2)). The mean percentage of body weight that was fat decreased 2.9% +/- 3.2% from baseline to 6 months (P <0.001). The mean serum bicarbonate level decreased 2 +/- 2.4 mmol/L (P <0.001) and blood urea nitrogen level increased 2 +/- 4 mg/dL (P <0.001). Serum total cholesterol level decreased 11 +/- 26 mg/dL (P = 0.006), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level decreased 10 +/- 25 mg/dL (P = 0.01), triglyceride level decreased 56 +/- 45 mg/dL (P <0.001), high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol level increased 10 +/- 8 mg/dL (P <0.001), and the cholesterol/HDL cholesterol ratio decreased 0.9 +/- 0.6 units (P <0.001). There were no serious adverse effects, but the possibility of adverse effects in the 10 subjects who did not adhere to the program cannot be eliminated.A very low carbohydrate diet program led to sustained weight loss during a 6-month period. Further controlled research is warranted.


Samjohn, note that this one was 25g a day - can be easily done on meat and green leafy veg/salad and a few berries
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 01:32:41 PM by avelin »
Ideology that fits biology

Offline avelin

  • Major
  • ***
  • Posts: 936
  • Karma: 57
  • Evolutionary
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2010, 01:12:55 PM »
This might be better (my underlining). I've again removed the Atkins summary but left in quoted abstract.

Quote

Obesity Research

Greene, P., Willett, W., Devecis, J., et al., "Pilot 12-Week Feeding Weight-Loss Comparison: Low-Fat vs Low-Carbohydrate (Ketogenic) Diets," Abstract Presented at The North American Association for the Study of Obesity Annual Meeting 2003, Obesity Research, 11S, 2003, page 95OR.

Greene, P.J., Devecis, J., Willett, W.C., "Effects of Low-Fat Vs Ultra-Low-Carbohydrate Weight-Loss Diets: A 12-Week Pilot Feeding Study," abstract presented at Nutrition Week 2004, February 9-12, 2004, in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Some researchers claim that people only lose weight on very low carb diets due to a reduction in calorie intake.  Others have argued that very low carb diets offer a “metabolic advantage” allowing people to lose weight without restricting calories.  The objective of this study was to evaluate if people who follow very low carb diets lose weight only due to restricting calories.

Twenty-one participants were recruited and were randomly assigned to three separate diets for 12 weeks: a low fat diet (55% carb, 15% protein, and 30% fat) and two different very low carb diets (both had 5% carb, 30% protein, and 65% fat).  The low fat (LF) diet and one of the very low carb (LC1) diets provided a total of 1500 calories a day for women and 1800 calories a day for men. The second very low carb diet group was allowed 300 additional calories a day (1800 calories for women and 2100 calories for men).  Meals were provided during the study.

After 12 weeks, all participants lost weight.  Both the very low carb groups lost more weight than the low fat group (LC1: -23 lbs, LC2: -20 lbs, and LF: -17 lbs).  The difference between the diets was not statistically significant.  More body fat was lost than lean body mass (such as muscle) or water on all the diets.  All participants lost inches from their waist and hips.

All three diets were effective in reducing weight in adults and the weight lost was primarily body fat.  Even participants consuming higher calories on the very low carb diet were able to lose more weight compared to the lower calorie, low fat diet.  Several risk factors for heart disease improved on all diets.  The authors concluded that very low carb diets do not reduce weight only by restricting calories.


The 1800 calories a day I've underlined is above my maintenance as I'm 5'3' but is within what many would call restricted calories. In my own case - I can happily eat about 400 cals above what is conventionally considered my daily calorie requirement.

I am going to look up two of the researchers whose names have appeared a couple of times.

Googling researchers names is a great way to find digitally published work, another way being to use a meta-search engine like metacrawler and a third way is to find references to, or search for, reputable sports or nutrition publications and then do your search for specific stuff.

You could also do a search by subject, and look at usenet categories - tons of research in there
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 04:27:09 PM by avelin »
Ideology that fits biology

Offline ARod

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2010, 04:23:50 PM »
you may or may not lose fat when eating low-carb above maintainance calories, but in theory it would impossible to lose weight if you eat more than you use/excrete

Offline samjohn

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 2394
  • Karma: 146
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2010, 04:26:16 PM »
Cheers for that avelin, that last one looks pretty useful.

Arod - Not really. The body does not have to store excess dietary calories.
The answer to your question is 'eat more fat'.

Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

If you are having weight loss issues, it'd be a good idea to start posting a detailed food journal, then everyone can help.

'Anecdotal Evidence' is an oxymoron.

Offline ARod

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 04:41:27 PM »
Cheers for that avelin, that last one looks pretty useful.

Arod - Not really. The body does not have to store excess dietary calories.

what else would it do with them? and how would it know that you dont want them stored? is it not adaptive and automatic to store excess calories when the body comes across them?

Offline Warren Dew

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 4409
  • Karma: 330
    • View Profile
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 05:00:13 PM »
It is not adaptive for hunters to be overweight.

Offline samjohn

  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • ****
  • Posts: 2394
  • Karma: 146
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 05:23:57 PM »
Cheers for that avelin, that last one looks pretty useful.

Arod - Not really. The body does not have to store excess dietary calories.

what else would it do with them? and how would it know that you dont want them stored? is it not adaptive and automatic to store excess calories when the body comes across them?

Excrete them as waste.
The answer to your question is 'eat more fat'.

Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

If you are having weight loss issues, it'd be a good idea to start posting a detailed food journal, then everyone can help.

'Anecdotal Evidence' is an oxymoron.

CAVEMANforum - The most popular Paleo diet and caveman exercise discussion site

Re: Low carb but above maintenance calories, still lose weight?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 05:23:57 PM »

 


CAVEMANforum | CAVEMANwiki New!