Author Topic: Example of healthy tribes  (Read 5486 times)

Offline ajmesa

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Example of healthy tribes
« on: October 19, 2009, 12:27:51 AM »
There are many examples of healthy tribes that rely mostly on carbs like Kitava, Okinawa, Hunza, Vilcabamba, etc. Obviously, we are talking about "primal" carbs which are not refined/processed, mostly fruits and tubers.

What are some examples of tribes that live healthy (low chd, cancer, high longevity once you reach 40 years of age?) and do not rely heavily on carbs. I was trying to find data about the Inuits but they did not appear to live too long because of environmental hardships. Please document your sources if you can.
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Offline Tarlach

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 05:09:15 AM »
Yeah, everyone loves an exception to the norm.  That's why these isolated examples get bandied around so much.  They are usually based on very little evidence though.

Quote
This paper estimates the food sources and macronutrient intakes of historical hunter-gatherers based on data from 229 different groups. Based on the available data, these groups did not suffer from the diseases of civilization. This is typical of hunter-gatherers.

Initial data came from the massive Ethnographic Atlas by Dr. George P. Murdock, and was analyzed further by Cordain and his collaborators. Cordain is a professor at Colorado State University, and a longtime proponent of paleolithic diets for health. He has written extensively about the detrimental effects of grains and other modern foods. Here's his website.

The researchers broke food down into three categories: hunted animal foods, fished animal foods and gathered foods. "Gathered foods" are primarily plants, but include some animal foods as well:

Although in the present analysis we assumed that gathering would only include plant foods, Murdock indicated that gathering activities could also include the collection of small land fauna (insects, invertebrates, small mammals, amphibians, and reptiles); therefore, the compiled data may overestimate the relative contribution of gathered plant foods in the average hunter-gatherer diet.

There are a number of striking things about the data once you sum them up. First of all, diet composition varied widely. Many groups were almost totally carnivorous, with 46 getting over 85% of their calories from hunted foods. However, not a single group out of 229 was vegetarian or vegan. No group got less than 15% of their calories from hunted foods, and only 2 of 229 groups ate 76-85% of their calories from gathered foods (don't forget, "gathered foods" also includes small animals). On average, the hunter-gatherer groups analyzed got about 70% of their calories from hunted foods. I think this makes a very strong case that meat-heavy omnivory is our preferred ecological niche. However, it also shows that we can thrive on a plant-rich diet containing modest amounts of quality animal foods.

Paper here - http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/682?ijkey=KPJ8NPKvC6lVQ

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/08/composition-of-hunter-gatherer-diet.html

1 in 5 hunter gatherer tribes are carnivorous and most others eat predominately meat.  None of them suffer the 'diseases of civilization'.

Some tribes that you may wish to look into:

Ache - Systematic recording of dietary intake while living in the forest entirely off wild foods suggests that about 80% of the energy in the diet comes from meat, 10% from palm starch and hearts, 10% from insect larva and honey, and 1% from fruits.

Men obtain about 750 calories per hour hunting, and around 1,000 calories per hour extracting palm starch and hearts.  Meat is the main focus of the diet, even though it is less economical to hunt.


Some others (with proportion of economic activity spent hunting or fishing).

Copper Eskimo (92 - 100%)
Comanche (86 - 100%)
Manus (86 - 100%)
Yahgan (82 - 100%)
Slave (82 - 100%)
Micmac (82 - 100%)
Yukaghir (82 - 100%)
Kaska (82 - 100%g)
Ingalik (82 - 100%)
Twana (82 - 100%)
Aleut (82 - 100%)
Gros Ventre (76 - 90%)
Badjau  (76 - 90%)
Tehuelche (72 - 90%)
Montagnais (72 - 90%)
Bellacoola (72 - 90%)   
Haida (72 - 90%)
Eyak (72 - 90%)
Gilyak (72 - 90%)
Saulteaux (72 - 90%)
Mbuti   (66 - 80%)
Abipon (62 - 80%)
Klamath (62 - 80%)
Lengua (62 - 80%)

* Does not take into account for time spent in the collection of small land fauna (insects, invertebrates, small mammals, amphibians, and reptiles), so numbers are conservative.

That's how long they spend getting meat.  There are probably plenty of tribes that are very good at hunting and spend a lot of time doing other things (hence a lower %).  These tribes all show how important hunting meat is, by how much time they dedicate to doing it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 06:10:52 AM by Tarlach »
The "Seven Deadly Sins"

• Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . • Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc)
• Refined foods (salt/sugars etc ) . . • Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant)
• Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . . • Legumes (soy/beans/peas)
• Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc)

Offline Il Capo

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 05:17:37 AM »
A bigger group than a tribe, and a diet that's not entirely paleo, but:

Quote
...Mediterranean diet, and perhaps the reason why it has generated so much attention in the USA is that although 40-50% of the calories in the diet come from fat, the incidence of heart disease and cancer in the Mediterranean is lower than in the USA.

Their fat comes primarily from pork and fish.

Link
http://spanishfood.about.com/od/discoverspanishfood/a/meditdiet.htm

And their life expectancy is almost the same as in the US, even when they smoke much more: 48% vs 28%.

Source: http://www.kidon.com/smoke/percentages2.htm
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 05:21:27 AM by Il Capo »
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Offline Il Capo

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 05:33:52 AM »
...
Tehuelche (66 - 75%)
...

Hey I know those guys! It is reported that they ate a lot of fat and no farinaceous (as in flour derived) food.
http://books.google.com/books?id=rHpE0oJdTcYC&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=tehuelche+diet&source=bl&ots=Fc_COePCvC&sig=xbR3cCE8zMSIYsnrwYhIi8Cauvw&hl=en&ei=jVrcSu_bJYyX8AbTlfi2BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=tehuelche%20diet&f=false

I did not find much about their health, although I know that their Native environment, Patagonia, can be harsh. Although those conditions can be thought of as a blessing in disguise.

Quote
The life of the Tehuelches was conditioned by a very hostile environment: terrible winds, extremely cold winters and lack of water, which prevented them from farming.


Source: http://www.1stclassargentina.com/tours/Patagonia.html
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Offline Il Capo

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 05:46:30 AM »
Also check out the Masai from Kenya:

Quote
In the 1960s, a Vanderbilt University scientist named George Mann, M.D., found that Masai men consumed this very diet (supplemented with blood from the cattle they herded). Yet these nomads, who were also very lean, had some of the lowest levels of cholesterol ever measured and were virtually free of heart disease.

Very diet = meat, animal blood and whole milk

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22116724/
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marika

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 06:52:41 AM »
Il Capo, I immediately thought of the Masai too, but then I read that they do not live very long (not much past 40 years of age).

http://www.energygrid.com/health/2002/06ap-stephenbyrnes.html
Quote
The Masai, for example, are remarkably healthy primarily on a diet of raw blood and raw milk which are unaffected by cooking or the toxins associated with modern cattle farming, although it should be pointed out that the average Masai lifespan is much shorter than that in the West, making comparisons more difficult.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/debunking-diet-myths-do-primitive-peoples-really-live-longer.html
Quote
No. For example, Inuit Greenlanders, who historically have had limited access to fruits and vegetables, have the worst longevity statistics in North America. Research from the past and present shows that they die on the average about 10 years younger and have a higher rate of cancer than the overall Canadian population.1

Similar statistics are available for the high meat-consuming Maasai in Kenya. They eat a diet high in wild hunted meats and have the worst life expectancy in the modern world. Life expectancy is 45 years for women and 42 years for men. African researchers report that, historically, Maasai rarely lived beyond age 60. Adult mortality figures on the Kenyan Maasai show that they have a 50% chance of dying before the age of 59.2

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/debunking-diet-myths-the-misinformation-of-barry-groves-and-weston-price.html
Quote
Maasai women have a life expectancy of 45 years, and men only live 42 years. I know these red-meat loving nuts will claim that those statistics are of the modern Maasai, not those of years gone by, but the data is also damaging even if you bring up statistics from 20 or more years ago, when good data was collected. Real African researchers, not Weston Price who just briefly visited them, or the list of Groves' Weston Price Foundation compatriots, documented that a Maasai rarely lived past the age of 60 and when they did, they were considered a very old man.

However, these sites seem to be promoting vegetarianism and so I'm not sure if they are entirely credible.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:08:53 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 07:07:01 AM »
More links from that site, interesting reading, especially the comments:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/admin/mt-xsearch.cgi?blog_id=663&search_key=keyword&search=maasai&Search.x=15&Search.y=-7

This comment was interesting:
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/debunking-diet-myths-the-misinformation-of-barry-groves-and-weston-price.html
Quote
If your going to pick on poor little Kenya's low life-span, realize that Finland, Denmark, and Belgium, countries that consume 1000+ calories or more of animal products daily than Japan have an average lifespan only 6 years lower, and lifespans higher than vegetarian countries India, Mexico, Venezuela, Chile, Panama, etc. Canada, Iceland, Sweden and France have a lifespan average less than 4 years lower than Japan.

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 07:08:29 AM »
You have to be really careful about "average" lifespan figures as infant and child mortality gets factored in to the average.  I think this is why ajmesa in his original post talks about lifespan once one reaches 40.  Unfortunately, that kind of data is rarely collected.

Another form of data that's rarely collected and analyzed is total calories.  I'd bet that adult life expectancy is much more strongly correlated to how few calories one eats per day than it is to what kind of calories those are.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:11:18 AM by Warren Dew »

marika

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 07:09:49 AM »
Yes, I agree, I think it is an unfair comparison. Many more children/women die in childbirth and young childhood in tribal living than Western.

One of the comments was especially on target, I thought:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-do-primitive-peoples-really-live-longer.html
Quote
For the Masai, there are other factors in their early deaths, namely development encroaching on their semi-arid grazing lands, poor supplies of clean water, lack of sanitation, non-existent medical care and high levels of waterborne disease. I don't know that more veggies would help in this case.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:16:45 AM by marika »

Offline ajmesa

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 10:45:16 AM »
@Tarlach: I read that paper a while ago, that's why I said in another post that tubers and other carbs seem to be a plan-b food, eaten when there is not enough meat.

I was looking through the tribes that you mentioned and most of them have very low life expectancy (under 40). I am not saying it is because of their health, it might be because of other environmental hazards (infection, war, hunting, etc) but what I am looking for is tribes where multiple members continuously reach 50+ years of age, and then live to be 80+ years of age. If any of those tribes do (I searched for about 5 of them, and stopped when all of the 5 had very short lives) please post it with some reference.

I am looking for something like the Kitava, where the tribe members that reach 40-50 years of age have a long life expectancy, say, 30-40 more years, in which time they also live life, meaning they dance with the rest of the tribe, are able to move well, etc.

@ Capo: yeah, here you can see that the more fat and sat fat European countries eat, the less heart disease they get:

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/09/saturated-fat-intake-vs-heart-disease-stroke.html

But there is one big flaw with that. In western societies the increase in carbs comes hand in hand with the increase in refined carbohydrates like sugar, flour, etc and use of grains, which could be the main culprit, not the macro-nutrient ratio (I do believe the macro-nutrient ratio plays a big part, I am just trying to find valid data). That why I am looking for tribal communities, because, like in Kitava, their increase in carbs comes from whole sources, like fruits and tubers. Not from refined grains and sugar.

The same goes with the Masai, they don't live long lives, so you can't really conclude much from it.

@ Marika: thanks for the source, I will read more into it.

@ Warren: I am sure caloric restriction has something to do with it, but why would you want to live that hungry so many years? ;). I am gonna go back to Kitavans again, I remember reading they have plenty of food available through out the year and eat 2,700 kcals a day on average. This means they don't starve, although this surely means they don't overeat (I think that's one of the big problems of the West).

If anyone can find more information please post. :D
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Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 10:49:09 AM »
@ Warren: I am sure caloric restriction has something to do with it, but why would you want to live that hungry so many years? ;). I am gonna go back to Kitavans again, I remember reading they have plenty of food available through out the year and eat 2,700 kcals a day on average. This means they don't starve, although this surely means they don't overeat (I think that's one of the big problems of the West).

Note that the Kitavans have just as low a life expectancy as the groups Tarlach and others have mentioned.  It's around 40 years.  It's only when you throw out some of the data that it changes.

My memory is that the Kitavans eat considerably less than 2000 kcal per day.  That's certainly true of Okinawans and Japanese.

Offline ajmesa

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 11:42:02 AM »
I was wrong about the calories, it seems to be 2,200 dietary cals.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/08/kitavans-wisdom-from-pacific-islands.html

This guy is getting all his data from the papers released by Cordain's group.

Their diet is not a caloric restriction type, they just eat until they are no longer hungry. Remember that potatoes are one of the highest foods in the satiety index, surpassing meats.

http://www.mendosa.com/satiety.htm

2,200 kcal in average seems reasonable given that they are not that physically active (same source) and that they are of smaller stature (and weight, thus needing fewer cals).

About the 40 years, that's why I am looking once you reach 40 years of age. Infant mortality is high in non-westernized cultures. In Kitava you can find many who are 60-80+ years of age. In the tribe Tarlach mentioned this does no occur (as far as I was able to find).
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Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 11:54:55 AM »
About the 40 years, that's why I am looking once you reach 40 years of age. Infant mortality is high in non-westernized cultures. In Kitava you can find many who are 60-80+ years of age. In the tribe Tarlach mentioned this does no occur (as far as I was able to find).

You likely weren't able to find it because it wasn't recorded.

Offline PaleoMama

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 01:14:33 PM »
I've found myself disturbed by the number of vegetarian or mostly vegetarian groups that are always talked about as having extremely long and healthy lives. I just read a book called something like Staying healthy to 100 or something similar and all the groups were mostly vegetarian and they were in the Blue Zone book.

I would like to think that it was mostly their eating to 80% full/ calorie restriction, that got them that health and longevity, but it does make me worry a bit too. I do know that I've been on that diet and felt horrible and I do feel better now, yet still don't feel like I'm bouncing around with energy either. I wish so badly to hear of people that also lived easily and vibrantly to 100 that ate a paleo style diet. Those numbers about the Inuit Greenlanders were a bit disheartening.

Offline ajmesa

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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 01:39:08 PM »
I've found myself disturbed by the number of vegetarian or mostly vegetarian groups that are always talked about as having extremely long and healthy lives. I just read a book called something like Staying healthy to 100 or something similar and all the groups were mostly vegetarian and they were in the Blue Zone book.

I would like to think that it was mostly their eating to 80% full/ calorie restriction, that got them that health and longevity, but it does make me worry a bit too. I do know that I've been on that diet and felt horrible and I do feel better now, yet still don't feel like I'm bouncing around with energy either. I wish so badly to hear of people that also lived easily and vibrantly to 100 that ate a paleo style diet. Those numbers about the Inuit Greenlanders were a bit disheartening.
Yeah, that is entirely what I am trying to look for.
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Re: Example of healthy tribes
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 01:39:08 PM »


 


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