Quote from: phrakture on July 22, 2010, 08:43:23 AM

These women are raised in a society where being physically desired is one of the best things they can have in life. You can't just point at an individual and say "change!". You have to change the social mores.

I disagree completely. Wanting to be the most attractive member of your gender is not a result of civilization or agriculture or society, but rather an instinctive drive to pass on your genes in the best possible way. For men, it means being attractive to as many women as possible (quantity), and for women (quality), it means being the most attractive to the most desireable man/men.

Being attractive for women is quite straightforward  and has not been significantly affected by Cosmo, Fashion models or any of the other "societal evil" or alleged brainwasher. Being attractive is a proxy for being fertile and can be summed up as:

- Be young (fertility decreases a LOT after 30).
- Have a .7 hips to waist ratio (or as close as possible).
- Look generally healthy (eg: full lips, no acne, good skin, etc.)
- Be reasonably sane.

Other factors that women may consider should make them attractive, such as their career, experience, personality, knowledge, prizes, etc., won't necessarily make them more attractive to all men. Some may appreciate these factors, but not all.

What agricultural civilizations create, by virtue of size, is a much bigger peer group. So the women who have an instinct to be desireable to the top men in a group of 100-150 people are all of a sudden driven to compete with their 10 million peers in a region. Most of them cope well, but a few end up with problems / wrong decisions such as anorexia, too much surgery, etc.

One could also argue that in our current society, physical attractiveness is no longer the most appropriate quality for choice of a mate. Some of this already occurs: women marrying ugly rich men, etc.

I'll give you the fact that among primitive man, attraction was king, but I think once we started creating languages and having conversations, there was a shift there. Intelligence level is nearly as important as physical qualities (not necessarily HIGH intelligence either - I have numerous friends that prefer "dumb women" ).

General health was also likely a factor in mate choice. Most of the signs of severe illness have their own odors... some sicknesses change your body odor smell, the smell of one's breath, and even the smells from an unclean toilet trip would linger on primitive man who had no toilet paper.

Quote from: ARod on July 22, 2010, 01:50:49 PM

Every society has their own stereotypical ideal for a woman's body, and in America's case, this ideal is currently in the hands of the media, which likes to portray terribly thin frames with moderate curves as the ideal.

Can you describe how that media portrayed ideal differs from Marilou Dozois, as pictured in Phrakture's post on the first page of this thread?  It seems to me she's a pretty good example, but her body has been shaped by olympic competition, not by the media.

not every woman can be an olympic athlete, but you are correct in suggesting that an active and healthy lifestyle is one practical method of lessening body dissatisfaction among men and women alike.  Every society has an ideal that is considered by the society to be healthy and attractive.  Ours can sometimes be reached through firm commitment to diet and exercise, but most women will never match up to the ideal (even those who fight to become thin often lack the curves).  This would be a non-problematic and normative situation were it not for the fact that the media not only thoroughly teaches women to constantly compare themselves to the ideal, but also suggests that the ideal can be reached easily, often through some fad diet or a pill or surgery.

okay so it's fashion and media then.  I simply pointed out the fashion aspect b/c it was an easy example.
Think about the magazines like SHAPE, ELLE, GLAMOUR .  it's printed media advertisement.  One may be more "fitness" related but it's still media at it's best.

And television most certainly exposes us to the "ideal" feminine body.  Weight loss this, weight loss that...it's everywhere in one form or another.

I'm saying it's all around us. In fashion, media, tv, magazines, etc.  It's thrown in our face every possible second.
Maybe there are some men out there who do like women with natural curves but there are also the latter who like them stick thin and unshapely.

I am not doubting anyone's opinion on here, I'm giving it to you from a females perspective.  You may think a gals muscular legs look freaking fantastic but she, the owner of those legs, may hate them b/c they are too muscular to abide by societies standards of what "sexy legs" look like.  To each their own I guess.

I am not doubting anyone's opinion on here, I'm giving it to you from a females perspective.  You may think a gals muscular legs look freaking fantastic but she, the owner of those legs, may hate them b/c they are too muscular to abide by societies standards of what "sexy legs" look like.

The age old "guess what someone else wants rather than ask them" theory

That would mean that even if someone were to objectively have the body of one ideal, she may still be dissatisfied with her body because it does not match up to the other.

Good point.

With respect to the body types, here's a good illustration of what I mean.

Emma Watson, the #1 earning actress in 2009, on the left, is probably a good example of what Il Capo is talking about (ignore the person on the right whoever she is):



Compare the arms and legs with those in the first full body picture that comes up on a Google search for "model:



Bit of a difference there, eh?

I have zero sympathy for all this 'the media gave me an eating disorder' idiocy. It is passing the buck just as surely as is suing Mcdonald's for being fat because you stuffed your face with burgers.

That said, these magazines have to go. In Australia Dolly and Cosmo both have an audience which contains a large percentage of 12-14 year old girls yet regularly feature very sexually explicit articles.

With regards to body type, it is personal choice. If you want to be muscly, be muscly, just be aware there are people it will appeal to and people it will not appeal to. There is no 'Ideal female body'.

not every woman can be an olympic athlete, but you are correct in suggesting that an active and healthy lifestyle is one practical method of lessening body dissatisfaction among men and women alike.  Every society has an ideal that is considered by the society to be healthy and attractive.  Ours can sometimes be reached through firm commitment to diet and exercise, but most women will never match up to the ideal (even those who fight to become thin often lack the curves).

I would contend that to the extent that Marilou Dozois meets the ideal that you and I and Il Capo are talking about, that ideal is not societally dependent.  Olympic weightlifting is pretty simple in concept - lift a weight over your head - and isn't all that different from what we might have done in the paleolithic.  Marilou Dozois would have looked pretty much the same in the paleolithic, and would still have been attractive then.

Your point about not every person being able to be an Olympic athelete is true, but I think that's the same point as Il Capo's about the size and connectedness of modern society making it much easier to see what the one in a million person looks like, rather than just the one in ten.

However, I would also note that some anthropologists think that the average paleo person would actually be comparable to an Olympic athlete today.  And that gets at the main reason that people are so much further from that ideal today:  starchy neolithic agricultural foods with at best poor quality proteins that make it easy to add fat but difficult to add muscle, along with a life style that involves minimal exercise.

if nothing else, i guess we can all agree that the media stinks

and, on a more practical note, i think most would agree that we should be sympathetic when someone these days suffers from body image-related self esteem issues